Discussion:
jnAna-karma samuccaya
Shrinivas Gadkari
2010-11-15 04:59:20 UTC
Permalink
subject matter.I am sure that Shankara,the brilliant logician that he
is,has answered all only from the Adwaithic point of view.This must be
kept in mind before studying his bhashyas.That is the greatness of
Shankara.We must also realise that there is no"Jnana-karma samuccaya in
his bhashyas,as some subscribers have suggested
                                                N.Srikanta.


----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Namaste,

For an ordinary sAdhaka like me the upAsanA marga in which jnAna, karma,
and yoga are beautifully integrated with the thread of bhakti is by far the best
path to adopt. If someone were to argue : .... but in the final analysis there
is only jnAna etc etc ... , to them I would say: Okay. In that case since jnAna
is an integral component of upAsanA marga, I will begin to see the truth of
claims like these when I am ready.

upAsanA marga / bhakti is a well rounded path capable of granting any and every
puruSartha.

hari om,
regards,
Shrinivas
Sunil Bhattacharjya
2010-11-15 22:47:25 UTC
Permalink
Dear Shrinivasji.

Namaste,

What you say is completely in line with the Bhagavad Gita. The goal of an advaitin is to realize the oneness with the Brahman or in other wordsto being one with the Brahman unless we attempt to find difference between these two statements. Adi Sankara had written in the beginning of his Gitabhashya as to what made him write the bhashya as he found that the earlier attempts by others did not succeed in resolving the seemingly controversial points. For example, one confusion arises in interpreting the Karma itself and in chapter 4 the Lord advises us to renounce the fruits of action,  be ever content, and be independent so that  one will not really be acting though in action. Many actions like Yogabhyasha cannot really  be considered as actions  as these  will not attract retribution though these may appear to be actions to others, who are not aware of what the Lord says.  In the same chapter he Lord has advised us to kill our doubts with Jnana and
then take to Yoga.

In chapter 6 the Lord  says that Yogi is higher than the Jnanai and also says that the yogi needs Kriya to reach the height of yoga but having reached the height he needs only to maintain  the calmness  and quietness.

The Lord says that Adhyatmavidys is the highest of all vidyas and in chapter 10 he says that Dhyana or Meditation is higher than Jnana.

As regards Bhakti or devotion the Lord says that he gives buddhiyoga to his devotees by which they go to him and later in chapter 14 the Lord says that by devoyion the bhakta knows him and knowing that they enter the Lord, This means even in the path of devotion the Lord himself provides the Jnana so that the devotee has no problem in being one with the Lord. Bhakti gives all the concentration needed. Being absorbed in bhakti to the Lord is not any different fron meditating on OM.

In the Bhagavad Gita the Lord has shown that no path is inferior whether it is karma yoga, Bhaktiyoga, or Jnanayoga  or Yoga itself. One should read the Bhagavad Gita with Sankarbhashya more often and may find  new meanings many a times in each reading and one  should do thi particularly after reading any other Vedanta literatur. The Lord had granted the people living in the Kali yuga a great favour through his Gita, which was no available in the earlier yugas.

Regards,

Sunil K. Bhattacharjya
.

--- On Sun, 11/14/10, Shrinivas Gadkari <sgadkari2001-/***@public.gmane.org> wrote:

From: Shrinivas Gadkari <sgadkari2001-/***@public.gmane.org>
Subject: [Advaita-l] jnAna-karma samuccaya
To: "Advaita-l List" <advaita-l-4gKAAF5ltrLLd2BZh+***@public.gmane.org>
Date: Sunday, November 14, 2010, 8:59 PM

subject matter.I am sure that Shankara,the brilliant logician that he
is,has answered all only from the Adwaithic point of view.This must be
kept in mind before studying his bhashyas.That is the greatness of
Shankara.We must also realise that there is no"Jnana-karma samuccaya in
his bhashyas,as some subscribers have suggested
                                                N.Srikanta.


----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Namaste,

For an ordinary sAdhaka like me the upAsanA marga in which jnAna, karma,
and yoga are beautifully integrated with the thread of bhakti is by far the best
path to adopt. If someone were to argue : .... but in the final analysis there
is only jnAna etc etc ... , to them I would say: Okay. In that case since jnAna
is an integral component of upAsanA marga, I will begin to see the truth of
claims like these when I am ready.

upAsanA marga / bhakti is a well rounded path capable of granting any and every
puruSartha.

hari om,
regards,
Shrinivas


     
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Vidyasankar Sundaresan
2010-11-16 14:39:25 UTC
Permalink
>
> The Lord says that Adhyatmavidys is the highest of all vidyas and in chapter 10 he says that Dhyana or Meditation is higher than Jnana.
>

This does not mean jnAna-karma-samuccaya. This has been explained clearly by
Sankara bhagavatpAda in the bhAshya. The distinction lies in the following. The
true jnAna yogin attains the state of complete rest from action (naishkarmya) and
there is no possibility of combining karmA and jnAna here. The karma yogin is one
who is not in a position to give up karmA, but detaches himself from its results and
dedicates the performance of karmA to ISvara. Here also there is no combining of
karmA and jnAna, but the karmayogin knows there is something called the state of
jnAna, aspires to it and strives to first attain the cittaSuddhi that qualifies him or
her for jnAna.

In particular, it can never be said that karmA cannot be renounced or should not be
renounced on the path to jnAna. Indeed, somewhere along the line, as informed by
oneself and one's guru, karmA HAS to be renounced. That is the thrust of the advaita
argument against jnAna-karma samuccaya. As long as one is not ready for this very
rigorous renunciation, one is not truly on the path of jnAna yoga.

Regards,
Vidyasankar
Sunil Bhattacharjya
2010-11-17 05:36:47 UTC
Permalink
Dear Vidyasankarji, 

Any karma  of a  Jnani may appear to be work to the world but that is not karma at all. If the Jnanai perorms  any karma that cannot be called karma. The Lord said that renouncing the attachment to the fruit of karma, ever content and without dependence he does not do anything even though he is engaged in action. Even while eating food he knows that he is the food and also the eater (enjoyer) of food and that is "brahmavedanam".

Regards,

Sunil K. Bhattacharjya

--- On Tue, 11/16/10, Vidyasankar Sundaresan <svidyasankar-***@public.gmane.org> wrote:

From: Vidyasankar Sundaresan <svidyasankar-***@public.gmane.org>
Subject: Re: [Advaita-l] jnAna-karma samuccaya
To: "Advaita List" <advaita-l-4gKAAF5ltrLLd2BZh+***@public.gmane.org>
Date: Tuesday, November 16, 2010, 6:39 AM


>
> The Lord says that Adhyatmavidys is the highest of all vidyas and in chapter 10 he says that Dhyana or Meditation is higher than Jnana.
>

This does not mean jnAna-karma-samuccaya. This has been explained clearly by
Sankara bhagavatpAda in the bhAshya. The distinction lies in the following. The
true jnAna yogin attains the state of complete rest from action (naishkarmya) and
there is no possibility of combining karmA and jnAna here. The karma yogin is one
who is not in a position to give up karmA, but detaches himself from its results and
dedicates the performance of karmA to ISvara. Here also there is no combining of
karmA and jnAna, but the karmayogin knows there is something called the state of
jnAna, aspires to it and strives to first attain the cittaSuddhi that qualifies him or
her for jnAna.

In particular, it can never be said that karmA cannot be renounced or should not be
renounced on the path to jnAna. Indeed, somewhere along the line, as informed by
oneself and one's guru, karmA HAS to be renounced. That is the thrust of the advaita
argument against jnAna-karma samuccaya. As long as one is not ready for this very
rigorous renunciation, one is not truly on the path of jnAna yoga.

Regards,
Vidyasankar                           
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Sunil Bhattacharjya
2010-11-16 16:36:03 UTC
Permalink
Namaste,



This is further to my earlier mail on the subject. The upasaka does
reach the ultimate goal through the grace of God, at the stage when the separation from the Lord becomes unbearable to the upasaka. 
At that stage the Lord gives the required  knowledge  (that the bhakta
is not separate from Him). It is unlike the status of the dvaitists,
whose goal is  to be near the Lord  yet remain as separate from the Lord
due to fear of losing the individual identity (and that we know is due
to a trace of Ahamkara remaining in them).  You can count on the grace of
the Lord. He too wants to have his bhakta back in Him and He will go an extra mile to help the bhakta.



Regards,



Sunil K. Bhattacharjya

--- On Sun, 11/14/10, Shrinivas Gadkari <sgadkari2001-/***@public.gmane.org> wrote:

From: Shrinivas Gadkari <sgadkari2001-/***@public.gmane.org>
Subject: [Advaita-l] jnAna-karma samuccaya
To: "Advaita-l List" <advaita-l-4gKAAF5ltrLLd2BZh+***@public.gmane.org>
Date: Sunday, November 14, 2010, 8:59 PM

subject matter.I am sure that Shankara,the brilliant logician that he
is,has answered all only from the Adwaithic point of view.This must be
kept in mind before studying his bhashyas.That is the greatness of
Shankara.We must also realise that there is no"Jnana-karma samuccaya in
his bhashyas,as some subscribers have suggested
                                                N.Srikanta.


----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Namaste,

For an ordinary sAdhaka like me the upAsanA marga in which jnAna, karma,
and yoga are beautifully integrated with the thread of bhakti is by far the best
path to adopt. If someone were to argue : .... but in the final analysis there
is only jnAna etc etc ... , to them I would say: Okay. In that case since jnAna
is an integral component of upAsanA marga, I will begin to see the truth of
claims like these when I am ready.

upAsanA marga / bhakti is a well rounded path capable of granting any and every
puruSartha.

hari om,
regards,
Shrinivas




     
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Shrinivas Gadkari
2010-11-17 05:43:58 UTC
Permalink
Namaste Shri Srikanta,
 
upAsanA need not be confined to singing bhajana, performing temple
worship, reading devotional texts ....
 
Striving to incorporate the vidya of mANDukya (meditation on omkAra)
is also an upAsanA.
 
Contemplating on the meaning of gAyatri and making gAyatri an integral
part of our life is also an upAsanA.
 
Study of and and making sincere efforts to incorporate grand vidyA-s like
madhu vidyA, vasihvAnara vidyA, in our lives is also an upAsanA.
 
Study of charitra of shrI rAma, shrI kRSNa and correlating aspects of their
charitra to neumerous vidyA-s described in veda, upanishad, purANa, ..
is also an upAsanA.
 
Study of shrI chakra and making efforts to understand how is relates to
different aspects of life is also an upAsanA.
 
If these upAsanA-s will not be sufficient to attain comprehensive understanding
of nirguNa brahma and build a strong bond with saguNa brahma, I might have
missed something in my study ...
 
Regards,
Shrinivas Gadkari
 
 
-----------------
Srinivasji,
You may have upasana or Bhakthi for your endeavour for the
Purushartha.But,what I am saying is one will reach the saguna Brahmopasana
as Shankara has said.You cannot reach Nirguna Brahman.Jnana is not an
integral component of Upasana marga.One will reach only as the devotee and
not even as "sarupya"to the devata he is doing Upasana.Shankara has made
this clear in this bhashyas.
Gaudapada in the Adwaita prakarana (IV prakarana)of Mandukya upanishad
karikas says:
"Upasanaashritasya dharmasya jate brahmani vartate!
Prag utpatter ajan sarvam tenasau krpanah smrtah!!"
The being(Atma) which is dependent upon "Upasana",remains with the
"Hiranya garbha"Brahman"It thinks before birth every thing is
birthless,therefore it is considered as miserly(krpanah).
Infact that is what all the "Bhajana Goshti"is doing these days.it
considers that with Bhajana everything is solved,without the effort of the
seeker.The sadhaka has to strive for getting "Brahmajnana".Well,if he
wants to be contented with only Bhakthi,then it is his lot.
                                                         N.Srikanta.
Bhaskar YR
2010-11-17 06:50:49 UTC
Permalink
If these upAsanA-s will not be sufficient to attain comprehensive
understanding
of nirguNa brahma and build a strong bond with saguNa brahma, I might have
missed something in my study ...

praNAms
Hare Krishna

Yes, upAsana-s of Ishtadevata would build a strong bond with saguNa brahma
and the phala (drushtAdrushta) of this upAsana-s also depends upon the
attributes of this 'upAsya brahma'...So, results would be different from
one upAsya brahma and another upAsya brahma...Moreover, upAsana is
'chOdana tantra' and purusha tantra...whereas jnAna phala is ONE and the
same and it would result in 'mukti' here in this very life...whereas
saguNOpAsa would lead to krama-mukti...shankara makes this clear in sUtra
bhAshya : tatra kAnichit brahmaN upAsanAni abhudayArthAni, kAnichit
kramamukthyarthAni, kAnichit karma smrutddhyarthAni, teshAM
guNavisheshOpAdhi bhedena bhedaH, eka eva tu paramAtmA IshwaraH
traistairguNavisheshairvishishtaH upAsyO yadyapi bhavati, tathApi
yathAguNOpAsanameva phalAni bhidyante... and elsewhere shankara also
confirms that : nAmAdishu prateekOpAsaneshu pUrvasmAt pUrvasmAt phala
visheshaM uttarasmin uttarasmin upAsane darshayati...

In short, upAsana is a sort of spiritual practice with upAsya, upAsaka,
upAsana bheda and it is 'purusha tantra sAdhana (chOdanAtantra) and the
end result of this is not the same as 'vastu tantra' jnAna...

But for the manda, madhyama adhikAri-s like us ishta devatA upAsana,
ArAdhana etc. are indispensable to get the required chitta shuddhi to
pursue the jnAna mArga.

Hari Hari Hari Bol!!!
bhaskar
Shrinivas Gadkari
2010-11-19 06:35:16 UTC
Permalink
Namaste Shri Bhattacharjya,
 
Thanks for your comments. Yes Gita is a great text. However as you point out,
parts of Gita can appear contradictory if not understood correctly. Taking help
of

different commentaries is most helpful in this regard. In the end however we
need
to come up with our own reading of Gita that makes sense to us - resolves
contradictions
in a manner that satisfies us.
 
Regards,
Shrinivas
 
 
---------------------
Namaste,
What you say is completely in line with the Bhagavad Gita.
 
Adi Sankara had written in the beginning of his Gitabhashya as to what made him
write the bhashya as he found that the earlier attempts by others did not
succeed in resolving the seemingly controversial points.

 
In chapter 6 the Lord  says that Yogi is higher than the Jnanai and also says
that the yogi needs Kriya to reach the height of yoga but having reached the
height he needs only to maintain  the calmness  and quietness.
The Lord says that Adhyatmavidys is the highest of all vidyas and in chapter 10
he says that Dhyana or Meditation is higher than Jnana.

As regards Bhakti or devotion the Lord says that he gives buddhiyoga to his
devotees by which they go to him and later in chapter 14 the Lord says that by
devoyion the bhakta knows him and knowing that they enter the Lord, This means
even in the path of devotion the Lord himself provides the Jnana so that the
devotee has no problem in being one with the Lord. Bhakti gives all the
concentration needed. Being absorbed in bhakti to the Lord is not any different
fron meditating on OM.

In the Bhagavad Gita the Lord has shown that no path is inferior whether it is
karma yoga, Bhaktiyoga, or Jnanayoga  or Yoga itself. One should read the
Bhagavad Gita with Sankarbhashya more often and may find  new meanings many a
times in each reading and one  should do thi particularly after reading any
other Vedanta literatur. The Lord had granted the people living in the Kali yuga
a great favour through his Gita, which was no available in the earlier yugas.
Regards,
Sunil K. Bhattacharjya
Vidyasankar Sundaresan
2010-11-19 17:00:07 UTC
Permalink
>Dear Vidyasankarji,
>
>Any karma of a Jnani may appear to be work to the world but that is not karma at all.

In which case, there is no true jnAna-karma samuccaya for the jnAnI, is
there?! As for the ajnAnI, karmA is possible, but again there is no jnAna-
karma samuccaya.

jnAna and karmA are incompatible with each other in the same sense
that the apparent actions undertaken by a jnAnI are not karmA at all.

Regards,
Vidyasankar
Sunil Bhattacharjya
2010-11-19 18:08:39 UTC
Permalink
I agree. Rigorously speaking, there is no Jnana-Karma samuccaya for both Jnani and Ajnani.

Regards,

Sunil K. Bhattacharjya

--- On Fri, 11/19/10, Vidyasankar Sundaresan <svidyasankar-***@public.gmane.org> wrote:

From: Vidyasankar Sundaresan <svidyasankar-***@public.gmane.org>
Subject: [Advaita-l] jnAna-karma samuccaya
To: "Advaita List" <advaita-l-4gKAAF5ltrLLd2BZh+***@public.gmane.org>
Date: Friday, November 19, 2010, 9:00 AM


>Dear Vidyasankarji, 
>
>Any karma  of a  Jnani may appear to be work to the world but that is not karma at all.

In which case, there is no true jnAna-karma samuccaya for the jnAnI, is
there?! As for the ajnAnI, karmA is possible, but again there is no jnAna-
karma samuccaya.

jnAna and karmA are incompatible with each other in the same sense
that the apparent actions undertaken by a jnAnI are not karmA at all.

Regards,
Vidyasankar                          
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Sunil Bhattacharjya
2010-11-19 22:24:44 UTC
Permalink
Dear Vidyasankarji,
 
A Jnani has to be SthiraJnani or SthiraPrajna and as the Lord told the Characteristics of the Sthiraprajn, one will have to be steady in keeping  away from the objects of the senses ((not physically alone, it will have to be mentally as well ) and he will have to be steady in  Dharana, Dhyana and go to Samadhi ( if not be in Dhyana and Samadh all the time). This indicates the possibility of a fall of the jnanai if he is not able to be steady like a true Sthiraprajan does. That person can neither be called pure Karmayogi nor pure Jnanayogi. He would be able to go either way depending on his propensity either way. In such cases the JnanaKarma Samuccaya seems to have some meaning. Or take the case of a Karmayogi, who having read the Bhagavad Gita, takes to the practice of self-sacrifice and does humanitarian work without any ppersonal agenda.  Would you think his renunciation (albeit developing gradually) will be in vain?

Regards,

Sunil K. Bhattacharjya

--- On Fri, 11/19/10, Sunil Bhattacharjya <sunil_bhattacharjya-/***@public.gmane.org> wrote:

From: Sunil Bhattacharjya <sunil_bhattacharjya-/***@public.gmane.org>
Subject: Re: [Advaita-l] jnAna-karma samuccaya
To: "A discussion group for Advaita Vedanta" <advaita-l-4gKAAF5ltrLLd2BZh+***@public.gmane.orgta.org>
Date: Friday, November 19, 2010, 10:08 AM

I agree. Rigorously speaking, there is no Jnana-Karma samuccaya for both Jnani and Ajnani.

Regards,

Sunil K. Bhattacharjya

--- On Fri, 11/19/10, Vidyasankar Sundaresan <svidyasankar-***@public.gmane.org> wrote:

From: Vidyasankar Sundaresan <svidyasankar-***@public.gmane.org>
Subject: [Advaita-l] jnAna-karma samuccaya
To: "Advaita List" <advaita-l-4gKAAF5ltrLLd2BZh+***@public.gmane.org>
Date: Friday, November 19, 2010, 9:00 AM


>Dear Vidyasankarji, 
>
>Any karma  of a  Jnani may appear to be work to the world but that is not karma at all.

In which case, there is no true jnAna-karma samuccaya for the jnAnI, is
there?! As for the ajnAnI, karmA is possible, but again there is no jnAna-
karma samuccaya.

jnAna and karmA are incompatible with each other in the same sense
that the apparent actions undertaken by a jnAnI are not karmA at all.

Regards,
Vidyasankar                          
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Shrinivas Gadkari
2010-11-21 02:30:53 UTC
Permalink
Namaste Shri Sastri,
 
Thanks for your post that clarified an advaitin's stand on mixing jnAna
and karma in an easy to understand manner.
 
What I find somewhat unsatisfying in such explanations is the following:
bhagavAna (mahA) viSNu and bhagavAna (parama) shiva, inspite of their
limitless jnAna, have not given up the karma of protecting the dharma,
and opposing adharma, evil. They never take an indifferent stand on
even the smallest vyavahArika event. For someone who is devoted to
these two, renouncing karma (vyavahAra) on attainment of jnAna somehow 
does not make seem to be the path to adopt.
 
If, however, an advaitin feels that on attainment of jnAna they reach a state
that
these two deities have yet to attain, then of course that closes the argument.
However, someone like me will find such a theory somewhat unpalatable.
 
Regards,
Shrinivas
 
 
 
 
----------------------------------
The functions of jnAna and karma are different and so no samuccaya, or
combination of the two, is possible. Karma is for those who have not
realized the real nature of the self, and consider the self to be a doer and
enjoyer. But the path of jnana is for those who have realized that the self
is not a doer or enjoyer. Thus the same person cannot be eligible for both
the paths at the same time. Karma has to be performed until the person
becomes a yogArUdha and then shama (remaining established in the path of
knowledge) is to be resorted to. This is not samuccaya, since karma and
jnAna are not practiced at the same time.

    After the dawn of knowledge any karma performed is akarma according to
the gItA. So jnAna karma samuccaya, in the sense of both being practiced
simultaneously, is not possible at all from the advaita point of view. The
advocates of jnAna karma samuccaya do not seem to have taken this aspect
into account.

Regards,

S.N.Sastri
V Subrahmanian
2010-11-21 07:31:28 UTC
Permalink
Dear Shrinivas ji,

Let me say a few words on the observations you have made:

On Sun, Nov 21, 2010 at 8:00 AM, Shrinivas Gadkari
<sgadkari2001-/***@public.gmane.org>wrote:

> Namaste Shri Sastri,
>
> Thanks for your post that clarified an advaitin's stand on mixing jnAna
> and karma in an easy to understand manner.
>
> What I find somewhat unsatisfying in such explanations is the following:
> bhagavAna (mahA) viSNu and bhagavAna (parama) shiva, inspite of their
> limitless jnAna, have not given up the karma of protecting the dharma,
> and opposing adharma, evil. They never take an indifferent stand on
> even the smallest vyavahArika event. For someone who is devoted to
> these two, renouncing karma (vyavahAra) on attainment of jnAna somehow
> does not make seem to be the path to adopt.
>

The question of Jnana-karma samucchaya that Sri Sastri ji has addressed is
something that is concerned with one's attaining to the liberating jnana.
The position of the Shastram is that the final liberating Jnana gives
liberation independently, without having to take the support of karma. And
'karma' in all this discussion means 'shAstra vihita karma' for that sadhaka
that is appropriate for his varna-ashrama.

On the other hand what you have stated above pertains to dharma-rakshana,
adharma-nigrahaNa, which is an altogether different topic. The
sadhaka/adhikAri is not expected to concern himself with dharma-rakshana and
the other. His is the domain of sva-dharma / karma anuShThAna. This is
what is required for him for chitta shuddhi and will help in gaining Atma
Jnana that destroys avidya and results in moksha. The 'renouncing' of karma
spoken of in the context of a Jnani is only this sva-dharma / karma. Even
here, upon attainment of Atma jnanam, it is the onset of the bhAva of
akartA, 'I am not the doer/experiencer' that results in the automatic
'naishkarmya' bhAva for the Jnani. Shankaracharya explicitly says, in many
of the places across the commentaries, that for an aparoksha jnani there
remains nothing to be done. This is only pertaining to the sva-dharma/karma
aspect in the sense that there is nothing for him to 'do' in order to attain
any particular puruShArtha. In that sense alone the term 'renunicaiation'
is applied in these contexts.

However, the Jnani, if he is in a position where he can influence others,
will engage in those actions that will help protect dharma and prevent
adharma. The earlier Acharya of Sringeri, Sri Abhinava VidyAtIrtha Swamiji
has openly said in a Kannada discourse: 'Just because we are Sannyasins we
are not a-karmins'. What He meant was: These Sannyasins who occupy
positions as Peethadhipathis will not remain idle; they will engage in a
number of activities that go to promote dharma. His daily schedule was
something that would make one wonder if anyone coulde accomplish so much
work.

Shankaracharya Himself, despite being a Jnani and a Sannyasin, accomplished
so much in the field of dharma-rakshana. So, it is action not directed at
achieving any puruShArtha for oneself that is involved here. Whereas in
Jnana-karma samucchaya discussion it is the karma that is varNa-Ashrama
specific, aimed at achieving a puruShArtha, that is involved. If we keep
this fundamental difference between the two: the aspirant/Jnani and Ishwara,
we will have no difficulty in appreciating that Jnana and karma, that too a
lot of it, can and do go hand in hand.

Sri Krishna Himself teaches in the Bhagavadgita third chapter that the
Jnani, while remaining amidst ajnanis, *should fully engage in all types of
karma* and be a role-model to them. Sri Vidyaranya too in the Panchadashi
has said this. When a Jnani engages in karma, even nitya karma, it comes
under the category of dharma-rakshanam.

>
> If, however, an advaitin feels that on attainment of jnAna they reach a
> state
> that these two deities have yet to attain, then of course that closes the
> argument.
> However, someone like me will find such a theory somewhat unpalatable.
>

If we see the distinction in the roles of a Jnani and Ishwara, we will have
no conflict as the one you have voiced. The Jnani who remains in society,
amidst people, will be doing all that is required for dharma rakshana and
dharma vardhana. His upadesham by formal discourses and actions by
participation in innumerable activities like homas, kumbhAbhiShekam,
pratiShTha, installing new Mutts, etc. all are directed at dharma rakshanam
which is indeed Ishwara kAryam. An advaitin never views attainment of Jnana
is something that puts the Jnani above Ishwara. It is only the Jnani that
is by nature completely indrawn, like Sri Chandrashekhara Bharati Swamiji of
Sringeri, that would withdraw from actions to a great extent. But, even in
His case, the quantum of work done for dharma sthApanam, rakshaNam and
vardhanam is immense. In such people's case, it is nothing but Ishwara's
work that is being done. You may feel assured that there is no room in
sampradaya Advaita for the apprehension you have expressed above.

The term 'samucchaya' is a technical one and Shri Sastri ji has clearly
brought out its implications. The Jnani's engaging in karma aimed at dharma
rakshanam is clearly out of the purview of 'samucchaya'.

Regards,
subrahmanian.v

>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Venkatesh Murthy
2010-11-22 10:19:04 UTC
Permalink
Namaste Sri Subrahmanian

On Sun, Nov 21, 2010 at 1:01 PM, V Subrahmanian
<v.subrahmanian-***@public.gmane.org> wrote:
> If we see the distinction in the roles of a Jnani and Ishwara, we will have
> no conflict as the one you have voiced.  The Jnani who remains in society,
> amidst people, will be doing all that is required for dharma rakshana and
> dharma vardhana.  His upadesham by formal discourses and actions by
> participation in innumerable activities like homas, kumbhAbhiShekam,
> pratiShTha, installing new Mutts, etc. all are directed at dharma rakshanam
> which is indeed Ishwara kAryam.  An advaitin never views attainment of Jnana
> is something that puts the Jnani above Ishwara.  It is only the Jnani that
> is by nature completely indrawn, like Sri Chandrashekhara Bharati Swamiji of
> Sringeri, that would withdraw from actions to a great extent.  But, even in
> His case, the quantum of work done for dharma sthApanam, rakshaNam and
> vardhanam  is immense.  In such people's case, it is nothing but Ishwara's
> work that is being done.  You may feel assured that there is no room in
> sampradaya Advaita for the apprehension you have expressed above.
>

But the Swamijis participation in Pujas, Homa activities means these
Karma are good for society. No Swamiji said stop doing Puja because
you are Brahman Tatvamasi. No Swamiji said stop doing Homa because you
are Brahman. No Swamiji said if you want Moksha Purushartha stop
doing Karma . It is correct the activities are needed for Advaita
Sadhana. But they must be done with Isvara Arpana Bhava.

> The term 'samucchaya' is a technical one and Shri Sastri ji has clearly
> brought out its implications.  The Jnani's engaging in karma aimed at dharma
> rakshanam is clearly out of the purview of 'samucchaya'.
>

The technical argument against Jnana Karma Samuccaya is only
theoretical but not practical. Practically there is a Samuccaya of
Nishkama Karma and Jnana Sadhana. Adi Sankara said Karma cannot be
combined with Jnana. But this Karma is not Nishkama Karma but done
with Aham Karta Aham Bhokta Bhava. In Nishkama Karma as Isvara Arpana
only there is no Aham Karta Aham Bhokta Bhava. The doer does not feel
he is doing Karma. Samuccaya of Nishkama Karma and Jnana is not only
possible but very beneficial very much needed.

Request you to kindly consider this position.

Regards

-Venkatesh

> Regards,
> subrahmanian.v
>
>>
>>
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Vidyasankar Sundaresan
2010-11-22 15:15:45 UTC
Permalink
> But the Swamijis participation in Pujas, Homa activities means these
> Karma are good for society. No Swamiji said stop doing Puja because
> you are Brahman Tatvamasi. No Swamiji said stop doing Homa because you
> are Brahman. No Swamiji said if you want Moksha Purushartha stop
> doing Karma . It is correct the activities are needed for Advaita
> Sadhana. But they must be done with Isvara Arpana Bhava.

All of this is already covered under the umbrella of setting an example for
sAdhaka-s to follow. bhagavAn kRshNa says it in the gItA too. As per the
Swamijis, if you want moksha purushArtha, you have to first get qualified
for it. That is why karmA is needed, but eventually, the jnAna mArga
requires karma-saMnyAsa and it is the same Swamijis who will approve
this giving up of action, in the appropriate case.

Today, we have armchair renouncers, who renounce their duties but want
their rights handed to them on a platter. That attitude is itself a growth of
adharma. It is to counter this trend that the Swamijis emphasize the correct
performance of karmA today. It is like ensuring that you at least have a
basic level of education certification before applying to a university. It is
like a specialist in relativistic physics using the concepts of classical physics
to design an automobile to run on city streets. It does not mean that the
university professor will teach you nothing more than 12th grade calculus
and it does not mean that the specialist in relativistic physics will use the
classical physics to talk of the properties of light etc.

>
> > The term 'samucchaya' is a technical one and Shri Sastri ji has clearly
> > brought out its implications. The Jnani's engaging in karma aimed at dharma
> > rakshanam is clearly out of the purview of 'samucchaya'.
> >
>
> The technical argument against Jnana Karma Samuccaya is only
> theoretical but not practical. Practically there is a Samuccaya of
> Nishkama Karma and Jnana Sadhana. Adi Sankara said Karma cannot be

This is quite confused thinking. Please read through the gItAbhAshya on
nishkAma karmA and understand why Sankara emphasizes that even that
eventually comes to an end in the state of naishkarmaysiddhi.

"This is only theoretical, not practical," is not a philosophical argument with
respect to any issue. What is "only" theoretical has far reaching implications.
The jnAnI cannot be REQUIRED to do any karmA - that is the reason why
there is such a great argument against jnAna-karma-samuccaya in advaita
vedAnta. If one jnAnI appears to be doing some activity for loka-kalyANa,
that is a blessing to the loka. If another does nothing and appears to be just
sitting in dhyAna, that too is a blessing to the world. If a third appears to be
crazy, that is a laukIka perception only, not true of the jnAnI. The point is that
you cannot say that a living human being who wants moksha should ALWAYS
perform karmA. If you make this a sort of requirement for moksha, then you
are making a false argument within advaita vedAnta.

Regards,
Vidyasankar
Shrinivas Gadkari
2010-11-22 07:16:32 UTC
Permalink
Namaste Shri V Subrahmanian,
 
Thank you for a detailed and clarifying post on advaitin view point.
 
Regards,
Shrinivas
 
 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dear Shrinivas ji,
Let me say a few words on the observations you have made:
 
The question of Jnana-karma samucchaya that Sri Sastri ji has addressed is
something that is concerned with one's attaining to the liberating jnana.
The position of the Shastram is that the final liberating Jnana gives
liberation independently, without having to take the support of karma.  And
'karma' in all this discussion means 'shAstra vihita karma' for that sadhaka
that is appropriate for his varna-ashrama.
 
....
 
However, the Jnani, if he is in a position where he can influence others,
will engage in those actions that will help protect dharma and prevent
adharma. 
 
....
 
Sri Krishna Himself teaches in the Bhagavadgita third chapter that the
Jnani, while remaining amidst ajnanis, *should fully engage in all types of
karma* and be a role-model to them.  Sri Vidyaranya too in the Panchadashi
has said this.  When a Jnani engages in karma, even nitya karma, it comes
under the category of dharma-rakshanam.
 
....
 
The term 'samucchaya' is a technical one and Shri Sastri ji has clearly
brought out its implications.  The Jnani's engaging in karma aimed at dharma
rakshanam is clearly out of the purview of 'samucchaya'.
Regards,
subrahmanian.v
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